http://www.killingtrain.com/node/643

The NATO Occupation and Fundamentalism: An Interview with Miriam of RAWA

Justin Podur
August 13/08

ISLAMABAD – The Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan  
(RAWA) is a women's organization that runs underground schools and  
other projects, educates Afghan girls, runs a periodic journal, and  
agitates politically for women's rights, human rights, secularism, and  
social justice in Afghanistan. From the 1979 Soviet invasion through  
to the 2006 closings of the camps, millions of Afghan refugees lived  
in Pakistan and many still do. While RAWA's operations were always  
based primarily in Afghanistan, they have also had a strong presence  
in the Pakistan refugee community. I spoke to Mariam from RAWA in  
Islamabad when I was there in July 2008.

JUSTIN PODUR (JP): To begin, perhaps you could introduce readers to  
RAWA and its work in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

MARIAM (RAWA): RAWA was begun in 1977 in Kabul as an organization of  
Afghan women for human rights and women's equality. After the Soviet  
invasion, some RAWA members were imprisoned in Kabul, and as a huge  
number of refugees fled to Pakistan, RAWA also shifted its focus  
somewhat, and began to work with refugee women and children in  
Peshawar (the capital city of the North West Frontier Province in  
Pakistan, close to the Afghan border). We began providing humanitarian  
services and some social assistance, through which we also tried to  
educate Afghan women of their rights. We continued our political  
activities, but because of the security situation in Afghanistan it  
was not easy. We continued to work underground in some Afghan cities.  
When the Soviet occupation was followed by the fundamentalists’ bloody  
rule and later the Taliban regime, we continued to work both in  
Afghanistan and Pakistan. We ran literacy programs, orphanages and  
schools in Afghanistan, but a lot of our public, political statements  
were made from Pakistan. We publish a political magazine called Payam- 
e-Zan (Women’s Message). Today under the NATO occupation and after the  
closing of the refugee camps, we do the political part mostly from  
Afghanistan as well, but much of our work is still semi-underground  
due to grave security risks.

JP: Can you say something about how RAWA is organized, how you  
'recruit', where RAWA's leaders are drawn from?

RAWA: Through our literacy programs, orphanages, and schools, RAWA has  
had contact with many girls over the past 15-20 years. There is a deep  
difference between the life of women in Afghan society who have lived  
through war, the Taliban, and the fundamentalists, in normal domestic  
life, and those girls that have been basically raised by or worked  
with RAWA. The latter have different vision, ideas, and mentality;  
they are aware of their rights and know that they must fight to  
achieve it. Some of them continue to work for RAWA after they are  
grown up. Some are adult women when they get involved and their whole  
families get involved. Some young girls and boys get involved. Others  
are involved who don't yet read and write but become attached to RAWA,  
especially in rural areas, where RAWA members live and work and are  
part of the community with the people.

JP: And what is the situation of Afghan refugees in Pakistan today?

RAWA: In general, Pakistan has been better to Afghan refugees compared  
to Iran or other neighboring countries. There have been some limits.  
The life in refugee camps was very hard and with very basic resources.  
The majority of the camps were under the control of fundamentalist  
parties who imposed their restrictions on the refugees. Work for  
democratic-minded groups such as RAWA was very hard and risky. Many  
Afghan freedom-loving individuals were assassinated by Jehadi groups  
with the help of Pakistani ISI. Meena, RAWA’s founder, was one of  
them. But despite all the problems, RAWA had its presence in some of  
the camps and we were running a refugee camp in suburbs of Peshawar  
for over two decades until it was finally forcibly evacuated by the  
Pakistan government some months ago.

In 2001-2002, after the US invasion and occupation, large numbers of  
Afghans went back. The Peshawar refugee communities were basically  
emptied, but due to bad conditions, returning to Afghanistan is still  
an unattractive option for many refugees.

When the government decided to close some refugee camps in 2006, it  
had a huge effect. Most of the refugees were forced to leave, even  
though they had lost everything in Afghanistan: they had no jobs, no  
shelter, nothing to go back to. And in fact no one knows what happened  
to them. Those families who have returned to Afghanistan are very  
disappointed with the lack of any job and facilities in Afghanistan,  
and many came back to seek refuge to Pakistan for the second time.

Today according to the UNHCR, refugees are coming back to Pakistan and  
they are trying to find places in the cities. When there is any  
tension between the Afghanistan and Pakistan governments, the Afghan  
refugees who suffer the most. Pakistan puts pressure on refugees to  
return to Afghanistan. But the people in the border areas are the same  
people – they share language, culture, clothing, tradition. After  
thirty years, too, many refugees saw Pakistan as their second country.  
Afghans know Pakistan supports the Taliban and the fundamentalists in  
Afghanistan, but the political crisis won't weaken the relations of  
the people across the border.

JP: Perhaps we could complete the introduction with a bit of your  
analysis of the political and military situation in Afghanistan.

RAWA: It is a complicated situation. We have NATO's occupation and the  
interference of neighbors, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Tajikistan,  
Russia etc. all of whom have supported different fundamentalist groups  
in recent years. The Taliban control some areas and in recent months  
even reached the borders of Kabul. They are being supported by some  
circles in Pakistan. Even the Iranian regime sends arms and ammunition  
to the Taliban. Afghan civilians are the prime victims of Taliban  
brutalities, again, including their suicide bombings. The brothers-in- 
creed of the Taliban, the Northern Alliance, are in power today and  
generously supported by the US government. Much of the northern part  
of Afghanistan is ruled by the local warlords of the northern  
alliance. The government of Hamid Karzai has no tangible control  
there. The Taliban and other Islamic movements are the enemy of the  
Afghan people. And their strength is supported by the US and the West.  
The support the fundamentalists get from outside makes it difficult  
for the Afghan people to resist them. On the other hand the US/NATO  
play a Tom and Jerry game with the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, while  
ordinary Afghans severely suffer from the impact of their blind  
bombardments and we witness awful tragedies of civilian casualties on  
a daily basis.

JP: You have described all of these Islamic political movements as  
enemies of the people, whether they are supported by the West or  
fighting NATO. I have heard the argument here that Pakistan and  
Afghanistan are deeply religious countries, and any political movement  
has to contend with that fact. As a consequence, I have heard that  
groups like RAWA isolate themselves because of their uncompromising  
stand on secularism and religion. Do you find that your secularism  
makes you unpopular?

RAWA: That is the impression the Western media give of Afghan society.  
Maybe it is true from their eye. We Afghans have lived through it. How  
it expresses itself depends on many factors, including social,  
cultural, and economic factors. We have worked in some of what would  
be called the most 'backward' areas, very religious, without much  
recognition of women's rights. But after some time, and sometimes it  
is quite quickly, over weeks or months, they come to like what we are  
doing and even get involved, even whole families. We have seen this in  
some areas. So I do not agree that the country as a whole couldn't  
accept democratic rights or secular values. It needs time and work to  
build social and political awareness, and in recent years people have  
not had that opportunity.

The brand of Islam the fundamentalists present is different from that  
of common Afghan people. Their Islam is a political Islam and each  
party has their own brand, which contradict each other. The Islam of  
Mullah Omar is different from the Islam of Burhanuddin Rabbani or  
Rasul Sayyaf, and these groups have been at war for years although  
they all pretend to be true Muslims. The fundamentalist groups have  
committed unprecedented crimes under the name of Islam over the past  
two decades. Today Afghans are so fed up with them that majority of  
Afghans support any voice raised against the fundamentalists. When  
Malalai Joya spoke against them for only 2 minutes in the Loya Jirga,  
her voice was soon echoed and supported by millions of Afghan across  
the country and she was called a heroine and voice of the voiceless.  
The fundamentalists impose their domination with the help of their  
weapons, foreign masters and money. Without these, they have no  
footing in Afghan society.

JP: Is the NATO' occupation helping or harming Afghanistan? Can it be  
used somehow to strengthen progressive forces? Is it holding back a  
Taliban victory which would be worse than the current situation?

RAWA: Seven years ago when the US invaded, the situation was  
different. Many Afghans appreciated their presence and were happy to  
get rid of the Taliban's oppressive rule. They thought – the Taliban  
had been eliminated, the international community worked, they were  
promised a better life, democracy and freedom and an end to the  
fundamentalist groups. Within months, it was clear that the US  
government still continues its wrong policy of supporting the  
fundamentalists in Afghanistan. We saw that the US rely on the  
fundamentalists of the Northern Alliance to fight another  
fundamentalist band – the Taliban. It doesn't matter if they fight the  
Taliban or “terrorism”, they are supporting the Northern Alliance, and  
for Afghans both are the same – both are terrorists and  
fundamentalists, supported by foreign governments, whether by the  
West, or Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia or any other country. They  
violate human rights, they abuse women, they commit corruption and  
fraud and smuggling, as we have documented.

 From the beginning, RAWA announced that the US and the West have  
their own reasons for being here and it is not for the freedom of the  
Afghan people. We said that what the US/NATO is doing under the name  
of democracy is in fact a mockery of democracy. It is clear for us.  
Today NATO bombings are increasing, more civilians are being killed,  
and other violations are being done by the US and NATO. And now even  
they are trying to share power with the Taliban and terrorist party of  
Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. If this plot is realized, it will mean another  
tragedy for Afghanistan and its people, the unification of all enemies  
of Afghan people under one umbrella so they could jointly smash the  
Afghan people and freedom-loving individuals and forces.

Under the mafia system and the shadow of gun and warlordism,  
unfortunately there is no chance for progressive forces to come to the  
scene and work openly. Any serious and stanch anti-fundamentalist and  
anti-occupation force still needs to fight underground and they are  
not supported and encouraged. In fact the US is afraid to see  
emergence of a powerful progressive movement in Afghanistan. Those who  
openly criticize the government and warlords face threats,  
imprisonment and restrictions. We are facing the same problems and  
risks today which we were faced under the Taliban.

The privatization and the free market system imposed on Afghanistan  
since 2001 is opening the way for neoliberalism in Afghanistan, which  
is another nightmare for our people. We are feelings its disastrous  
impact on poor people of Afghanistan. The degree of destitution and  
poverty in Afghanistan is beyond imagination. The gap between rich and  
poor is getting wider day by day. Over 70% of Afghan people are living  
under the poverty line. According to official statistics, 42% are  
living with only US$10/month. Skyrocketing prices in recent months  
have made life a torture for the majority of Afghan people.

JP: What about the argument that if NATO left, Afghanistan would  
quickly fall to the Taliban, which would be worse?

RAWA: It is true that it might be worse under a Taliban regime. But at  
least we will not be occupied by a foreign power. Today we have two  
problems: our own local fundamentalists and a foreign occupier. If  
NATO left we would have one problem rather than two.

RAWA has announced a number of times that neither the US nor any other  
power wants to release Afghan people from the fetters of the  
fundamentalists. Afghanistan’s freedom can be achieved by Afghan  
people themselves. Relying on one enemy to defeat another is a wrong  
policy which has just tightened the grip of the Northern Alliance and  
their masters on the neck of our nation.

JP: If NATO left the Taliban would also have a more difficult time  
portraying themselves as a national liberation movement, an argument  
they can make and a source of prestige for them so long as the  
occupation continues.

RAWA: Actually both parties depend on each other. If the US were to  
eliminate the Taliban somehow, they would find themselves with no  
pretext for being here. But the Taliban and terrorism are only a  
pretext. They are not honest. They are here for the strategic ends:  
the central location from which to control Iran, Russia and China,  
affect Pakistan's government and society, strengthen its grip on the  
Central Asian Republics and so on. That is why they keep increasing  
their military presence and building up bases. NATO will probably  
leave, but the US won't – they wanted a pretext for being here, and  
the US will not set aside the golden opportunity.

JP: NATO's “development effort” has involved a lot of non-governmental  
organizations (NGOs) that have been involved in providing social  
services. Is RAWA seen as one of these?

RAWA: RAWA never introduces itself as an NGO. It is a political  
organization for women's rights and human rights. But it does try to  
meet direct needs and we do run social programs. Actually it is our  
political stance and activities that hurt our relations with the NGOs  
and agencies and why we don't get funds from foreign governments.  
Embassies do not want to give RAWA funds because we are political.  
This is in contrast to the thousands of recently established NGOs in  
Afghanistan over the past 6-7 years. It is a good business. You will  
have some families, with some English and a computer, and they become  
an NGO with funds, documents, and proposals being produced in their  
homes. Most NGOs that are larger, or bigger aid agencies, are funded  
by governments and influenced by those governments. The smaller ones  
often get involved in fraud and corruption – they work not for the  
Afghan people but for their own purposes. Millions of dollars of funds  
go to NGOs and are wasted in overhead, salaries, office expenses, and  
so on. They collect huge salaries, they have no long-term projects,  
they spend huge amounts for security expenses and vehicles.

NGO-ism is a policy exercised by the West in Afghanistan; it is not  
the wish of the Afghan people. The NGO is a good tool to divert people  
and especially intellectuals from struggle against occupation. NGOs  
defuse political anger and turn people into dependent beggars. In  
Afghanistan people say, the US pushed us from Talibanism to NGO-ism!

JP: Your political stance means governments don't want to give you  
money. Do you have any criteria for where you will accept donations?

RAWA: The question has not come up since we have not been offered  
funds from a government. But we will accept unconditional support from  
any source. We rely on individuals and sometimes, groups of feminists  
in other countries who support RAWA. We sell our own materials through  
income-generating projects, carpets, handicrafts, CDs, posters; we do  
fundraising whenever we go on speaking tours to other countries. That  
is how we continue. After 9/11 there was some interest in RAWA and we  
had good funding for 1-2 years. Today Afghanistan has the same  
problems but we have had to scale back our operations, reduce the  
numbers of children in our orphanages, and cancel some projects for  
lack of funding. RAWA is facing a grave financial problems today which  
affects the scales of our activities.

We see a total difference between the Western governments and their  
people. Most of these people are not in favor of the policies of their  
government towards Afghanistan. I have heard there is a free media in  
the US, but also that people do not know much about the outside world  
or the policies of their governments. RAWA is proud to receive  
donations from individuals, organizations, and groups not linked to  
governments, but not from government sources that would put pressure  
on RAWA. We would rather forego such money and attempts to control us.  
Even if we face problems, one hundred dollars from individuals gives  
us courage and lets us know we have support, in a way that thousands  
of dollars from a government agency would not.

JP: These projects RAWA runs, they must be underground as well?

RAWA: They are semi-underground but not the way we were under the  
Taliban. We are able to run education projects, and have meetings and  
gatherings in Afghanistan. But we are not registered with the  
government. Even if we were, we know they would try to stop us. We  
never use the title RAWA for our projects. People mostly know, but  
officially, we are not registered as RAWA – all run as private  
activities, initiatives, run by locals.

JP: The primary media source in Afghanistan is the radio. Is it  
possible for RAWA to get on the radio? What is RAWA's media strategy?

RAWA: It is not possible at the moment, partly because of the  
financial (although some supporters from Italy have suggested they  
could raise funds for it, in fact), but mainly because of the security  
problem. But we can use some other techniques to run a radio station  
if we were provided with the needed funds and equipment. We can run it  
without any sign of RAWA in it, but still in the current situation, we  
can’t reflect our points of view as clearly and openly as we do  
through our web site and magazine, because if we do so, the next day  
the radio staff will be gunned down by the warlords.

JP: I read recently that Afghanistan and Pakistan has a growing number  
of opium addicts, including women, as a consequence of the war and  
displacement. Has RAWA come across this in its social service work?

RAWA: Out of the estimated 26 million population, over one million are  
addicted, which include even children and women, and the number are  
increasing.

Many people who are involved in poppy fields gradually become  
addicted: a mother working in the fields all day with health problems  
of her own, can't get her child to sleep or stop crying, she might  
give some to her child. There are many women in prisons today, and  
large numbers get addicted in prisons.

JP: What is RAWA's perspective on drugs?

RAWA: We think poppy cultivation in Afghanistan is part of the US  
regional strategy to control this third biggest global commodity (in  
cash terms). And it is not a new phenomenon, but has been a project of  
the CIA's covert operations in the region since the start of the  
Soviet-Afghan war in 80’s. Today even the US/NATO encourage farmers to  
cultivate poppies. There are some reports that even the US troops have  
hand in the drug trafficking and the US government makes billions from  
the Afghan drug business. The UK military are negotiating deals with  
the Taliban on drugs, in Helmand.

Since 2001 the opium cultivation increased over 4,400%. Under the US/ 
NATO, Afghanistan became world largest opium producer, which produces  
93% of world opium. Those engage in the dirty business reach to the  
Afghan cabinet and even recently Mr. Karzai was accused by US  
officials of supporting the drug-dealers. His brother Wali Karzai  
leads the largest network of drugs in Kandahar. Gen. Daud, head of the  
counter-narcotics department of the interior ministry, himself is a  
famous drug-trafficker! Warlords in the Northern Afghanistan each  
control the route of drug-smuggling to the Central Asian Republics.

No one talks about this horrible aspect of the US occupation of  
Afghanistan. We are now living under a narco-state and drugs has  
already impacted Afghan people with horrible consequences.

JP: As a political organization, what is RAWA's relationship with  
political parties in Afghanistan?

RAWA: We have good relations with some. But unfortunately most  
political groups, democratic groups, human rights, women's rights, and  
intellectuals are not active. Thirty years ago there were lots of  
activities of such groups, and RAWA was just one. After the Soviet  
invasion and the Northern Alliance, the Taliban and Pakistan, many  
activists were arrested, assassinated, or made to flee the country.  
Our founder, Meena, and many others, were killed here in Pakistan, in  
the killing grounds of the Russian puppets and elsewhere. The past 30  
years, the progressive forces of Afghanistan faced many losses and  
were always under pressure. And today still they are being  
marginalized or neutralized by the NGO-ism policy.

So the most powerful forces on the political scene are fundamentalists  
or linked to them, representing them, and using their political  
positions to protect them. Movements of left groups and intellectuals  
have been greatly weakened. But there are many progressive and freedom- 
loving individuals around and we have a long way to go and unite them  
under a unified force. There are some small groups too and we are in  
touch with them. We have to support each other.

There has been some rather small resistance against the US/NATO and  
warlords in some parts of the country. If the US/NATO occupation and  
atrocities continue for long, there will be stronger resistance from  
Afghan people.

To donate to RAWA, see the Afghan Women's Mission <http://www.afghanwomensmission.org 
 >.

RAWA's website <http://www.rawa.org> is www.rawa.org.

Justin Podur is a writer and activist based in Toronto. He was in  
Pakistan in July 2008. His blog is www.killingtrain.com.
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